E15 now available in 16 states

jmbo · February 23, 2015, 16:34:06 PM

Quote from: Bucko on February 20, 2015, 19:53:51 PM
But isn't alcohol is added to gas (as in gas line antifreeze) because it does 'attract' water. The idea being the alcohol added will soak up any moisture in the gas and prevent it from freezing - eventually burning and removing the moisture from the fuel system. So assuming gas pump alcohol is water free (and that's probably a wrong assumption) then it might help removing water from your gas.

This is kind of half right. Alcohol is hygroscopic and absorbs moisture. Added to gasoline E10 can absorb 50 times more water than non alcohol base gas. Yes it allows it to mix and be consumed in the engine. The problem is water does not burn and it doesn't support combustion.

The use of an antifreeze in gas is fine so long as you use the alcohol (gas antifreeze) only as needed and the mixture only needs to deal with the small amount of water in the gas tank. What about the water the is absorbed by the alcohol while in storage tanks, transport tankers, pipelines. If left to settle water will separate and float on top of water (remember the old sediment bowl) Now it is being pumped through parts of your engine not meant to touch water and as such are subject to corrosion

The last issue regarding alcohol/water in gas is that the combo shortens the life of gas by a least a half and often more. Regulae gas can be storred for a year. E10 has a shelf life of 90 to 100 days under ideal circumstances.

John Hopkins · February 20, 2015, 20:30:15 PM

I understood a little differently...

Alcohol burns hotter than gas and due to the sugars in alcohol the more you burn the more likely it is to burn a hole in the piston, but that takes a pretty neat alcohol.. also alcohol is hydroscopic, it holds water.. but the other thing about ethanol is that if left in the carbs over winter it can form a varnish like residue which can harden on the rubber parts and also block the jets..

John.

Bucko · February 20, 2015, 19:53:51 PM

But isn't alcohol is added to gas (as in gas line antifreeze) because it does 'attract' water. The idea being the alcohol added will soak up any moisture in the gas and prevent it from freezing - eventually burning and removing the moisture from the fuel system. So assuming gas pump alcohol is water free (and that's probably a wrong assumption) then it might help removing water from your gas.

I know that one problem with alcohol's water absorbing ability is at some point it can absorb too much water (super saturated) after which some sort of a shock (including mechanical shock or maybe a temperate change) can cause phase separation and the water will precipitate back out of the alcohol (at least back to some saturation level).

jmbo · February 19, 2015, 22:31:44 PM

As I understand it, much of the concern regarding corrosion is the fact that alcohol attracts moisture. As we all know moisture in gas is a problem. Adding even 15% corn-ohol will attract as much as 30% more moisture to the mix. That combined with the fact that some rubber and plastic compounds do not fair well with alcohol to begin with adds up to bad news for a system not designed to deal with the mixture.

greenbarn · February 19, 2015, 21:17:45 PM

Quote from: Bucko on February 19, 2015, 20:08:44 PM
Well that's where the article doesn't make sense because it's suggesting undiluted E15 is OK for cars - i.e. the hose full doesn't apply as they can take full tanks of E15 .

My bad... I got in a hurry and typed without thinking - I was reading "E15" but thinking "E85" in my head.....

My take is that even 15% ethanol isn't great for older cars not designed for alcohol - but I don't think it's as bad as it is for bikes and other smaller engines. Besides the corrosion issues, alcohol burns leaner (and hotter) than gasoline, which is more of a problem with bikes and other smaller engines which don't have the elaborate feedback system to automatically adjust the fuel mixture. Cars have a lot better system to adjust the fuel mixture to compensate for the alcohol. A carbed bike does not.

Bucko · February 19, 2015, 20:08:44 PM

Quote from: greenbarn on February 19, 2015, 16:42:43 PM
E15 is bad for ANY vehicle not designed to run on ethanol. But, it's OK for a car or truck to get a "hose full" because it would be diluted with the rest of the fuel, say 10-20 gallons.

Well that's where the article doesn't make sense because it's suggesting undiluted E15 is OK for cars - i.e. the hose full doesn't apply as they can take full tanks of E15 .

greenbarn · February 19, 2015, 16:42:43 PM

Quote from: Bucko on February 18, 2015, 00:02:15 AM
According to the article, the exemption for motorcycles appears to be based on the notion that since a motorcycle's tank is typically small, a preloaded hose full of E15 could 'pollute' a fill up of regular gas. But the articles doesn't adequately explain why a small amount (a hose full) of E15 is bad for a motorcycle (apparently bad enough for an exemption) but 'OK' for a car filling up with a full tank of E15?

E15 is bad for ANY vehicle not designed to run on ethanol. But, it's OK for a car or truck to get a "hose full" because it would be diluted with the rest of the fuel, say 10-20 gallons.

John Hopkins · February 18, 2015, 12:20:14 PM

Quote from: kfoster on February 18, 2015, 08:39:15 AM
The cost to produce ethanol, even with govt. subsidies is prohibitive in the current marketplace.

Don't worry, you have plenty of room for price increases before you get to what we pay (about $9 per gallon) and our wind power generated electricity costs about five times the price per kilowatt of any other form of electricity production.

John.

kfoster · February 18, 2015, 08:39:15 AM

It is possible that E15 will not catch on because the price of oil has been reduced significantly. The cost to produce ethanol, even with govt. subsidies is prohibitive in the current marketplace.

Bucko · February 18, 2015, 00:02:15 AM

According to the article, the exemption for motorcycles appears to be based on the notion that since a motorcycle's tank is typically small, a preloaded hose full of E15 could 'pollute' a fill up of regular gas. But the articles doesn't adequately explain why a small amount (a hose full) of E15 is bad for a motorcycle (apparently bad enough for an exemption) but 'OK' for a car filling up with a full tank of E15?

jmbo · February 17, 2015, 22:37:17 PM

Here's an article about EN15 waivers for motorcycles. The article is a couple years old but it talks to the issues and the problems with non flex-fuel vehicles. According to this motorcycle are exempt. (for now) Of course that's OK providing you still have the choice not to buy EN15 gas. Those day may be numbered.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/07/05/everything-you-need-to-know-about-ethanol-fuel-and-your-motorcycle/

John Hopkins · February 17, 2015, 21:45:58 PM

Nothing confusing in that, it seems that it has already started, the governments have drawn a line in the sand, from 2015 all vehicles will be made to run on E15, anything older than that will take years to suffer real damage, most will no longer have carbs, they will run on FI and their manufacturers guarantees will have expired, and insurance companies will start charging extra for non ethanol vehicles, and I think it's just smoke and mirrors about the big oil companies fighting against this because (a) the big oil companies will still supply 85% of each gallon and (b) they will already have invested heavily in ethanol production facilities.

John.

Bucko · February 17, 2015, 21:32:05 PM

This is a bit confusing since the linked article says that E15 is cleared for use in many motorcycles (whatever that means)

http://www.examiner.com/article/e15-now-available-16-states?cid=rss

jmbo · February 17, 2015, 18:06:05 PM

I live in the Southeaster Wisconsin Emission Control Area. Basically my county requires emission checks on all cars. (so far not bikes) We have up to 10% ethanol in our gas (special formulated gas). The county line is three blocks west of my house. The next county is outside the emission zone. (Funny, the air does not smell any better) Fortunately I can head west when I need gas and fill up outside the ethanol zone otherwise I would have to put "corn-ahol" gas in my bike. No sure how it would run. Not sure I want to find out.

John Hopkins · February 17, 2015, 11:01:01 AM

This is probably a sign of things to come..

First the government will start a positive campaign to promote the environmental issues and say how good it is for global warming, and then after a few years you will not be able to find non ethanol fuel at all, give the manufacturers a few years to discover grants available for promoting E5,10 and 15 and in about 10 years time they will stop publishing the amount of ethanol in the fuel at the pumps, the next step will be only E15 is available..

In Britain we have a take it or leave it policy and most pumps no longer say if there is ethanol in the fuel.. We can either take what they sell or not ride/drive.

When the government wanted us to use diesel in cars they sold it at the pumps for just under half the price of petrol, three years further on, after most of the cars on British roads had converted to diesel and the price had more than doubled so it now costs more than petrol.

John.

Feed Poster · February 16, 2015, 16:32:23 PM

E15 now available in 16 states

The state of Georgia has become the 16th state to offer E15 fuel for use in all flex-fuel vehicles. The other U.S. states where the higher-level E15 blend is available are Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Tennessee, Alabama, North Carolina, Michigan, Florida, Ohio, Illinois, and Arkansas.

BE VERY CAREFUL not to put this into your bike. Also, be aware you can get a bunch of it if you use a pump with a single hose and multiple grades of fuel. This stuff is very bad for bike motors.

Source: E15 now available in 16 states

From: Motorcycle News - http://www.topix.net/rss/motorcycles