Electrical problem

[greenbarn]

and we now have heard from Scrooge McDuck.......

A guy's gotta learn to save where he can,  gotta pay for toys SOMEHOW.  On the other hand, if I had all your money, I could burn mine...

[CDNRatMan]

 and we now have heard from Scrooge McDuck.......

[greenbarn]

On that note, what I was thinking to do to keep from using my battery on start-ups was to have one of those gerbil exercise wheels hooked up to a small generator motor.  When I want to start my bike, I lure the gerbil into the treadmill wheel with some food and he starts running.  This, in turn, will rotate the shaft on the generator, thus creating the 12v I need for start-up.  Once I get the bike started, I give the gerbil a treat so he doesn't have to run anymore.  This way I can make my battery last longer from not having to use it for start ups at home.  I haven't yet figgered a way to bring the gerbil and treadmill with me for start ups when on the road.

Just park on top of a hill.  Gerbil food costs money...

[DC]

WOW 1908 think you should replace it Mr. Benny, Sir time to let it go and get a new one.....

On that note, what I was thinking to do to keep from using my battery on start-ups was to have one of those gerbil exercise wheels hooked up to a small generator motor.  When I want to start my bike, I lure the gerbil into the treadmill wheel with some food and he starts running.  This, in turn, will rotate the shaft on the generator, thus creating the 12v I need for start-up.  Once I get the bike started, I give the gerbil a treat so he doesn't have to run anymore.  This way I can make my battery last longer from not having to use it for start ups at home.  I haven't yet figgered a way to bring the gerbil and treadmill with me for start ups when on the road.

[John Hopkins]

Keep the old battery fully charged, you never know when you might need it, even if it only helps someone else get home..

John.

[CDNRatMan]

 WOW 1908 think you should replace it Mr. Benny, Sir time to let it go and get a new one.....

[greenbarn]

If it were mine, I wouldn't bother to try to do anything with a 2008 battery. 5 years is a long life for a battery.  That's like 72 in human years.  Like Troll says, even in a car that's about average for battery life.  Right now at the shop we're replacing batteries from a lot of 2007, 2008, and some 2009's already.

[Troll]

A car battery from '08 is pretty old! Most H-D types get a year or 2 tops out of a battery...

[DC]

The old battery is from 2008.  Maybe I could try selling it on CL locally.

[greenbarn]

I think you found your problem.

How old is the old batt anyway?

You could try to sell one of the batteries.
Or you could keep the new one safe and warm and dry, and use the old one until it does crap out, as it will sooner or later.

[DC]

Okay, here's the latest.  Yesterday I went to Lowe's and got a metric bolt and a lag bolt, in a larger size.  Thought about it a while, then bagged using those.  Went to the hardware store today.  Explained everything to an old guy there.  He methodically zeroed in on how to fix this.. . . pretty much what you are all saying.

First get a self-tapping screw the next size, 1/4 20.  Then we got a 1/4 20 bolt.  So I used the self-tapping screw to clear a way in and make new threads.  Then I used the 1/4 bolt in place of the original M6.  I had to use some washers underneath the head to reduce the effective length, since it was a bit longer than the M6.  Put it all together and tightened it up.  Works great!!!!!

Started right up.  No clickety click.  So far.  Went on a chilly ride for about 2 hours running errands. I'm deliberately NOT going to put in on the Battery Tender Plus(tm) for a week or so.. I want to determine if there is something draining the battery when the bike is off.  If no  clickety click after a week or 2, then it was just the loose ground cable causing the problem.

So now what do I do with the original battery, which apparently is still good?

[49Reo]

Loc-tite used to sell a product called "thread restore" or something like that. I had a harmonic balancer fail on a 454 chev engine; when I changed it, the threads in the end of the crank shaft failed. Anyway, I tried the loc-tite stuff, it said would give 80% strength of the original thread. Put a release agent on the bolt, filled the end of the crankshaft and coated the bolt with the Loc-tite stuff, put it in, waited overnight. Unscrewed the bolt, cleaned everything up and pulled the balancer on with it. If you tyr this, just make sure you clean the engine case to bare metal where the connector sits when the bolt is tight after using the Loc-tite stuff.

[DC]

You might, just might, be able to find a self-tapping bolt to fit.  You would have to take the original to a HW store.  I would not try this unless that's the only purpose for the hole (i.e. just a ground strap, not holding anything else on).  Keep in mind most threads are "stripped" from aluminum b/c of over-tightening and/or cross threading, but mostly over-tightening.

I'm going to Lowe's tonight to try to find a self-tapping bolt.

Last night I tried something I heard elsewhere.  I cut up some paper clips and tried to use them as grip material for the bolt.  Basically, the paper clip metal is too soft or won't stay in place.  I worked on that for a couple of hours last night, to no avail.

Then I tried using a larger bolt in the hole, but it was too big.  It looks like a 1/4 20 might work in there.

So on to the self-tapping bolt idea.

[greenbarn]

You might, just might, be able to find a self-tapping bolt to fit.  You would have to take the original to a HW store.  I would not try this unless that's the only purpose for the hole (i.e. just a ground strap, not holding anything else on).  Keep in mind most threads are "stripped" from aluminum b/c of over-tightening and/or cross threading, but mostly over-tightening.

[DC]

I guess that's what I'll have to try then.  So I'll find a location, then go out and get a cable long enough to reach it.

Before I do that, I'm wondering if I could wrap the bolt threads with some thin metal, to try to get a better grip.  Something like aluminum foil, but not aluminum, as mixing it with copper can cause problems.

[Troll]

Electricity is extremely logical. It will only go if it can get back...and the ground path is how. The engine ground is only necessary because the engine is rubber mounted. Saw the braided cable on a Harley come loose like that going down the road. Stopped right there.... I believe I mentioned that ground problem possibility..glad to know my brain is still working. Choosing an alternate bolt to attach to seems to be the easiest, quickest solution. 

[greenbarn]

Is there any other place on the block you could connect to.
You just have to establish a good ground.

aralph

This is the easiest option - in order to put in a helicoil, you would have to drill out the existing hole, and tap it to the size of the helicoil.  Then the helicoil screws into the hole, giving you new threads on the inside of the coil.  NOT a good option if you can't get to it to drill it out.  You may have to extend the cable, and move it to a new location.  LIke aralph said, just about anywhere on the block would work.

[DC]

Is the helicoil the way to go, or is there something else I can do with the screw that would create enough grip in the hole?

I'll also try to scope out another grounding point on the block.

[aralph]

Is there any other place on the block you could connect to.
You just have to establish a good ground.

aralph

[waltervl]

10 mm head is M6.

[DC]

The plastic side cover with the single chrome screw holding it. The coolant reserve tank and all the electrics are hiding back there.

Okay, I figgered that out, when I went back out in the garage.  Thanks.

Not that it matters, but I also figgered out how to take everything off the left side.       Just curious as to where everything went.

But anyway, here's what I found.  The connection from the battery to that relay block is rock solid.  Then I happened to see the negative black going to the engine block.  I touched it and it was loose.  So I figgered, before tightening it up, I would take the screw out, clean up the inside face and also clean up the round loop connector.  There was some corrosion on each, but not much.  But I sanded them until they shined.  So now I know when they are in contact, there is a good connection.  When I had the screw out, I noticed some curly wire around the screw. . . almost like an attempt at a makeshift helicoil.  Hmmm. . . Anyway, I figgered time to put it back on and test.  As I'm trying to tighten it up, it just keeps spinning but not tightening.  I'm not even giving it much muscle.  Now it's starting to make sense.  Someone else had an issue with it coming loose, tried to make a helicoil to tighten the fit, and I guess it worked for a while.  Well, it doesn't anymore.

So the head is a 10mm.  How do I size a helicoil for this?  It's been too many years, I can't remember, since I worked in a shop.  Do I need to drill and tap, or just fit the next size up?  What would I get?  I can't see drilling that out.  There's just no room.

And yes, I did test it out after tightening it up.  Started first time. no clickety click.  But I think the jury is still out, until I can firmly button down that negative on the engine block.

[Troll]

The plastic side cover with the single chrome screw holding it. The coolant reserve tank and all the electrics are hiding back there.

[DC]

The relay is the under the right side cover, towards the rear and should have a pretty beefy cable attached. The relay also houses the main fuse. The starter motor is between the front of the engine and the lower part of the radiator. This design uses a relay for current switching, and a roller clutch on the starter that is constantly engaged, but freewheels when the engine is running...it has no "solenoid" in the automotive sense of the word. Check for loose main cable at the starter, and the relay,  but there is also a ground wire from the battery to the frame to the engine. If the ground cable is loose at either connection, you will get a significant power loss. Putting power from your battery with a jumper cable, directly into the terminal on the starter will get the motor to crank the engine. The starter relay does this for you at the push of  button

Okay, I'm not sure which right side cover you mean.  Do you mean the small one inside the larger cover with the socket hex cap screws (3 or 4 round head ones, I can't tell)?  Or do you mean the entire right side cover with the oil filler cap on it?  I know this sounds dumb (I'm not sure how it's constructed) but won't all the oil come out if I take the entire cover off?

To get either off, it looks like I would have to remove the highway bars, floor board, bracket, one or more of the exhaust pipes, and a bunch of other stuff.  Is this right?  I tried undoing one of the socket hex cap screws but it seems frozen and if put much more oomph behind it, I'm afraid of stripping the head out.

Are there pics of the innards under that cover anywhere?

[greenbarn]

Now imagine the starter solenoid is an ordinary switch..when it is in the 'start' position that battery lead connects across to the only other thick wire connected to the solenoid..after checking that the wires are tight in their solenoid connectors you can bridge the two connectors with a thick piece of wire..If the solenoid is faulty the starter will turn the engine over even with the ignition switched off..If that happens you need to replace the solenoid and at least clean the contacts..If the starter does not turn the engine over you need to check the starter motor connection which is quite a job on these bikes..it is possible that the motor needs removing and to do this you should have to remove the radiator.

John.

MAKE SURE the bike is in Neutral - If you jump the relay/solenoid you will bypass the keyswitch and ALSO THE NEUTRAL SAFETY SWITCH.  It will start in gear.....

[John Hopkins]

If you have fitted an AGM battery it has two round screw in plates on the top, one for + and one for - you have to screw the adaptor into these before you can attach the ground and live wires, the adaptor can work loose without you noticing it, leaving the connectors and leads tight..I would start there because if one of the connectors is loose the resistance will not allow enough current to reach the starter motor..

Next is the starter solenoid behind the right cover..one of the battery leads goes straight to that if that is loose the same thing happens..

Now imagine the starter solenoid is an ordinary switch..when it is in the 'start' position that battery lead connects across to the only other thick wire connected to the solenoid..after checking that the wires are tight in their solenoid connectors you can bridge the two connectors with a thick piece of wire..If the solenoid is faulty the starter will turn the engine over even with the ignition switched off..If that happens you need to replace the solenoid and at least clean the contacts..If the starter does not turn the engine over you need to check the starter motor connection which is quite a job on these bikes..it is possible that the motor needs removing and to do this you should have to remove the radiator.

Starter motors can be damaged in all sorts of ways..A poor connection can cause the voltage to arc and overheat the wiring, brushes wear out and the brush holder can slip against the commutator and damage that, bearing wear can cause the rotor to sieze and short against the stator..

All in all it's not as difficult as it sounds and a loose connection is usually the cause..

John.