I recently bought this bike and there are some issues that I believe will be solved by new springs and fresh oil in the front shocks. I've ordered the Progressive springs and will buy transmission oil for the oil change. The only local dealer charged me $400 to balance the front wheel and do a diagnostic that told me nothing. Now, that same dealer is saying that the problem may be that the nitrogen in the front shocks has leaked out over time and they need to be re-charged. I can find nothing on this forum and anywhere else that mentions nitrogen in the front shocks - or anywhere else for that matters.
Can someone here enlighten me please?
Thank you.
Grant
First off, your dealer is full of crap. Find somebody competent, or better yet, learn to do it yourself. What are the symptoms? From here, I'm going to bet it's an issue with the steering neck bearings. They have been a problem for a long time. The stock bearing races are too soft and they get dents in them that forces the fork to stay straight until you apply a great deal of pressure, and then it suddenly moves. By the way, get your 375 back, 25 is a reasonable price to balance a wheel.
Thanks, Troll. Why am I not surprised? I had complained about the high bill for no results on Friday, and the service agent said that she would take it up with the service manager and the technician. She called me today to say that they decided that it could be fork oil, fork springs, rear tire (They checked the front one.) or low nitrogen. I asked her if she was sure that they mentioned low nitrogen and she assured me that they had. I told her that I had never heard of a Drifter having nitrogen in the shocks.
They have offered me a free hour's assessment to determine what may be wrong. If I go ahead with that, and I don't believe right now that I will, it is scheduled for June 23.
Unfortunately, they are the only Kawasaki dealership in the city.
In 1999, I bought a new Drifter from them and did my own service, what there was of it, for 5 years. Then I sold it - stupid.
So, now I bought this 1999 Drifter with 9500km on it. Looks like new, but is 22 years old. It seems to have been maintained well, but there is this problem. When riding up to about 80kph/50mph, all is well. When riding over 100kph/62mph, all is well. In between those speeds, there is a "bouncing". I wish that I could explain it better. I thought that it could be wheel balance and that's why I took it to the dealer. Clearly, I was wrong. I should have known, as it is not really the kind of vibration that wheel balance causes. It really is more of a bouncing. That said, it's not like the forks are compressing and rebounding, either. I don't imagine that this is much help to you, but it's all that I can come up with.
So, I have ordered the progressive springs and have curb side service for a gallon of automatic transmission fluid. I read here that is a good way to go. When the springs arrive, I'll pull the forks, drain them and use some new oil to flush them a couple of times before filling them and replacing everything.
If anything that I've said here gives you other ideas, I'll gladly listen. I figure that it can't hurt to do the oil and springs.
What kind/age are the tires? I had a pair of Michelin Commander IIs that had very hard lap seams, and the bouncy feeling was quite evident, especially around town. I'm running Shinkos right now, and even though they aren't as long lasting as the Michelins, they give a better ride and are quite confidence inspiring.
the rear seems to only last about 10,000 miles, the front might go nearer 20,000. Just about the same as the much more expensive Metzelers I used to run.
Tks, Troll. I am now leaning to tires being the problem. I spoke to two dealers and Kaw Canada today, and confirmed that there is no nitrogen in the front shocks.
I explained the symptoms to one of the dealer techs and he doubted that springs and oil were the issue, but agreed that it could not hurt to change them out if only for my peace of mind. Kaw Canada said that it could be an out of round wheel. The dealer tech, like you, leaned to tires. I am not sure, but I'm betting that these are the original tires on this bike. It only has about 10,000km/6000miles on it, but if I am right, they are 22 years old.
Edit: Oh well, back to the drawing board. The seller just got back to me. The tires have fewer than 1000 km on them and are 2 years old. Back to the drawing board.
Quote from: gwilki on June 01, 2021, 09:34:10 AM
The seller just got back to me. The tires have fewer than 1000 km on them and are 2 years old. Back to the drawing board.
That doesn't mean a lot, as even a 2years old tire can be an issue: it all depends on weather it's been sitting or not, for all that time...
Just my 2 cents.
Tks for that, Mittico. All advice is welcome.
I just got new tires and was riding yesterday when I got a flat rear. Took it home and it turns out I hit a nail and the tube is bad. While I was looking at everything on the stand I checked the spokes too - many lose ones! I used to do the sound test (tap each one with a wrench and if it made a ping it was good) but far better to tighten each one to know for sure.
I wonder if your spokes are loose.
Kaw Canada mentioned the same thing, Tim. I'm going to at least do the ping test later today. Thank you.
1/4" wrench works well to tighten the spokes. ;)
Do you bother to torque them? I'm assuming that, since you use an open end wrench, that you do not.
Quote from: gwilki on June 01, 2021, 11:51:34 AM
All advice is welcome.
I would start here.
Check both wheels for runout.
From the FSM - With tires installed, service limits are 2mm axial (side to side) and 1.5mm radial (up and down). Standard is 0.8mm both axial and radial.
Check how much weight is on the wheel.
There is a note in the FSM. More than 90grams should not be used...I think that's about 3oz. Whenever I balance a tire (static), I start to get concerned around 2oz...especially if it's on the front.
What kind of tire is it?
I've had bad luck with the Michelin commanders. My issues showed up at 60-80km/h. I would have sworn the front wheel was the problem. Turns out the rear was out of round...sometimes you just can't tell.
Quote from: gwilki on June 01, 2021, 14:05:57 PM
Do you bother to torque them? I'm assuming that, since you use an open end wrench, that you do not.
26-65 INCH/lbs from FSM.
Tires are Shinko. I have dial gauges so I can check the run out. I have a large wood turning lathe that I can mount the wheels on and check them that way.
I'll check how much weight is on each wheel and report back.
Tks, TJ
After a ride today, I started to think that maybe the issue is coming from the rear tire/wheel. TJ described my issue as like horse bucking. That's a better description that a handlebar vibration.
Since my last post, I've found the following:
The front tire is a Shinko SR777 bias ply. The front wheel has 1/2 oz of weight on it.
I have yet to measure the run out on the front wheel.
The rear tire is a Dunlop Cruise Max bias ply. The rear wheel has 2 3/8 oz of weight on it. The rear wheel is out by about .030" axial, well within the spec. This measurement is with the wheel on the bike. I have yet to measure the radial. I will likely need to remove the wheel to get a radial run out measurement.
One thing that I am going to take up with Dunlop is that they say that the Cruise Max is not a match for my bike. The size is right, so I want to find out why they say that.
Quote from: gwilki on June 02, 2021, 19:57:22 PM
After a ride today, I started to think that maybe the issue is coming from the rear tire/wheel. TJ described my issue as like horse bucking. That's a better description that a handlebar vibration.
Since my last post, I've found the following:
The front tire is a Shinko SR777 bias ply. The front wheel has 1/2 oz of weight on it.
I have yet to measure the run out on the front wheel.
The rear tire is a Dunlop Cruise Max bias ply. The rear wheel has 2 3/8 oz of weight on it. The rear wheel is out by about .030" axial, well within the spec. This measurement is with the wheel on the bike. I have yet to measure the radial. I will likely need to remove the wheel to get a radial run out measurement.
One thing that I am going to take up with Dunlop is that they say that the Cruise Max is not a match for my bike. The size is right, so I want to find out why they say that.
A few things come to mind...
Having almost 70 grams of weight on the rear wheel IMHO is a lot of weight. If the "balance dot" is opposite the valve stem and the wheel weights are 180 away from the stem (assuming the weights are in the same spot)...then there is not much else you can do about it.
Your tires being mismatched (front to rear) will not help the situation. Some say you can mismatch tires with no ill effects. IIRC a few Ducatis came from the factory with mismatched tires...I don't think it's a good idea here and it may be compounding your issues.
If the manufacturer doesn't list the cruisemax as a match for the bike...construction and behavior may be different enough to not be a "match" (belted bias ply vs bias ply etc).
Too many things are not quite right with that rear tire...
I apologize JT for my bad math skills. The rear wheel has 1.375oz/39grams on it, not 2.375oz.
Had a thought this morning about your issue. Seeing the age and the amount of time it's sat idle, I might think about a stiff u-joint causing the problem. http://www.vulcangadgets.com/files/ujoint.html
Tks, Troll. I'll add that to my list of possible causes. The list is getting much longer than I had anticipated. It will keep me off the streets. :(
Quote from: gwilki on June 03, 2021, 09:07:46 AM
I apologize JT for my bad math skills. The rear wheel has 1.375oz/39grams on it, not 2.375oz.
Sounds like the weight is within reason on both wheels (assuming it is in the correct area).
Even if your runout both axi and rad on both wheels is within spec, I think it is still worth looking into...mismatched tires (front to rear) and the rear tire not being a "match" for the bike. Too far off what is suggested by the tire manufacturer and the FSM.
Just a thought...rear suspension setting.
Maybe it's worth a look and adjustment.
My rear shocks are set at 13lbs with the dampener at 3. (I'm 225lbs)
It can't hurt to try. Tks, TJ.
I spoke to a good guy at Shinko. He was very surprised about the recommended front tire pressure. The manual says 28. He said that they recommend the pressure shown on the sidewall, +/- 2 lbs. That pressure is 49, so not even close. Mine is at about 32 right now. Interesting that the manual shows between 36 and 40 for the rear. The sidewall on my rear tire says 41 - very close.
I just got a call from the Service Manager at my local dealer. The "nitrogen in the shocks" comment was a miscommunication on the part of a relatively new service advisor. The person who advised her was referring to the rear shocks. Apparently, they load them with nitrogen rather than air.
I wanted to post this in fairness to the dealership. Miscommunications can happen.
No they don't They have plain old air in them. I run 25 psi...rebound set at 4.
Tks, Troll. I wasn't clear, I think. This particular service department puts nitrogen in them. I have no idea why.
What do you use for a pump. I've been looking online for a no-loss pump. There seem to be quite a few very pricey units.
Quote from: gwilki on June 04, 2021, 06:56:42 AM
Tks, Troll. I wasn't clear, I think. This particular service department puts nitrogen in them. I have no idea why.
What do you use for a pump. I've been looking online for a no-loss pump. There seem to be quite a few very pricey units.
Get a cheap no-loss shock pump from a bicycle shop - you'll probably have a tough time finding one that has a low enough graduation on the pressure scale though as most bicycle shock pumps are relatively high pressure.
Tkw, Bucko. I ordered a pump through the dealer. Not cheap, but necessary kit, I think.
Update. I completed a contact me form on the Dunlop site yesterday and got a call today from Dunlop in California. He cleared up the message on the website that says that the Cruise Max is not for the Drifter. It is the third choice of Dunlop as it turns out. So, no worries there.
However, he was really against mixing tire brands. He didn't seem to be pushing Dunlop as he said that replacing the rear with a Shinko or the front with a Dunlop may well solve my issue - no guarantees,of course. By comparison, the Shinko guy that I spoke to had no concerns about mixing his SR777 on the front with the Dunlop Cruise Max on the rear.
In my former life, riding BMW's in the 70's and 80's, the conventional wisdom was that brands were never mixed. We mixed brands on our road race bikes, but that was to achieve specific ends. Never on the road bikes.
Quote from: gwilki on June 04, 2021, 06:56:42 AM
Tks, Troll. I wasn't clear, I think. This particular service department puts nitrogen in them. I have no idea why.
What do you use for a pump. I've been looking online for a no-loss pump. There seem to be quite a few very pricey units.
Progressive Mini Gauge Pump, https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/progressive-mini-gauge-pump?gclid=Cj0KCQjw5PGFBhC2ARIsAIFIMNdQUe43BsJq2YM8OTikkWFmcgiah_hnHk5kaiJzacI7TL9CxpGeyQMaAoc9EALw_wcB This is what is used for the rear shocks. Prices and brands vary, however this is the type to use.
Tks, OD. That's the one that I ordered locally. Might be here this week some time.
Difficult to accurately measure low pressure with that pump. Ideally you'd want a pump with a maximum gauge reading of 15 ~ 20 lbs.
This one is relatively expensive digital unit but says it will measure in 1/2 lb increments: https://www.marzocchi.com/products/digital-shock-pump (https://www.marzocchi.com/products/digital-shock-pump)
(I used to have one of these before I broke it >:( : https://www.ebay.com/itm/274693274552?hash=item3ff4febbb8:g:a9gAAOSwWENgM~yO (https://www.ebay.com/itm/274693274552?hash=item3ff4febbb8:g:a9gAAOSwWENgM~yO))
Update: Well after much wrenching around, the issue is resolved. I fixed it by installing a new Shinko rear tire to match the front one. I don't know if the rear Dunlop was bad or simply a bad match for the front Shinko. What I did find out, and likely should have seen sooner, was that even though the Dunlop had very few kilometres on it, it was almost 9 years old. Not good.
Thanks to all who provided advice.
Nice that everything went good.
Now jump on that scoot and go ridin'! ;)
Glad you got it sorted! Out of curiosity, what was the runout on that wheel?
I apologize for the long delay in replying, TJ. I missed your post somehow. I thought that I posted the run out, but can't find my post so I must be dreaming. I forget what it was, but it was well within the specs that someone on here posted. Tks for your interest.