I know I have mentioned this several times before in this site but I ride a Drifter in Harley Country. Most people people would probably say so what but living 30 miles from Milwaukee does make for some interesting observations. It seems there there are three types of bikes in this area, Harleys, Harleys, and the bike you buy your wife when you can't afford to buy her a Sportster.
I would have to ride more than sixty miles in any directions and to see anything but an HD on the road or parked at a bar. Mind you it doesn't bother me. I love my Drifter and if I need to remind myself of the cost of entry in the the HD brotherhood, all I need to to do stop by my buddies house and watch him polish is $30,000 Ultra Limited. No thanks I'm happy on my '99'er.
My only complaint is it is a bit like being Rodney Dangerfield. You get no respect. In all fairness the Drifter is a unique bike. The production numbers are low enough that some might even consider it rare. Three more years and I can pull collector plates on my bike. Maybe I'll take a ride to Green Bay or Dubuque where I get kudos, thumbs up and high fives where they appreciate a good looking bike and finally and get some respect.
With my wife I don't get no respect. I made a toast on her birthday to 'the best woman a man ever had.' The waiter joined me.
When I was a kid I got no respect. The time I was kidnapped, and the kidnappers sent my parents a note they said, "We want five thousand dollars or you'll see your kid again."
I tell you, with my doctor, I don't get no respect. I told him, "I've swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills." He told me to have a few drinks and get some rest.
With my dog I don't get no respect. He keeps barking at the front door. He don't want to go out. He wants me to leave.
source: http://www.jokes4us.com/peoplejokes/comedianjokes/rodneydangerfieldjokes.html
I have the opposite problem over here,I am fed up of people saying I like your harley and other harley related comments.
I work near the Harley plant in PA. Yes, there are a lot of Harleys in the area. It is about the only V-Twin bike you see around here. Sport bikes are really popular around here though with the younger guys. I'd say it's about a 50/50 split between Harleys and sport bikes around here.
I stopped at a local biker apparel/leather shop near the plant a few weeks ago. I started talking with the owner a bit. He collects old Indians and bought a new Polaris Indian when they first came out.
>:( Well yesterday was the local Ride For Dad Charity run for prostate cancer, and of course the majority of bikes were H-D's local Yamaha dealer and Honda dealer had booths set up the closest H-D dealer did send down a rep but he was not to be found because he was riding....lol...of course. But I still had the coolest bike in the ride, no questions there for sure.
We always stand out at these events with our Drifters.
Just like ET proved that we are not alone in the universe, today I found hope for Drifters in Harley Country......another Drifter. I had to drive into Brew-Town for an appointment. Toyed with taking the bike but for some reason I didn't. Five miles north of town what do I see inch worming its way up HWY36 to Milwaukee but another 1500 Drifter. I drove behind it for a ways. Funny as many miles as I have ridden on my '99'er and I have never watch the rear suspension work. Finally after 10 miles or so he turned off. Great to see there is still hope in Harley Country.
;D lol the first time I rode behind a 800 and saw the fender moving I near fell off laughing......
The first and only time I have seen another Drifter in Southern Ontario was the day I got the plates for mine, I was on my way to the Ministry of Transportation (that's like the Department of Motor Vehicles in Ontario) to pick up the plates for my Drifter and going the other way was a Granny riding a Drifter! Maybe I shouldn't call her a Granny she was probably the same age as me.
Sunday was a bad day for Drifter riders.........
Bigras, GreenBarn and I were in New Liskeard for the Biker Reunion, and we were parked in a line on the curb. A Drifter 1500 purple and white went by really slow and sort of glared at us. I pointed to the curb and told him to come over and park with us, he then sort of came around and left ......snubbed us, came by later and went right past us and ignored us, then after the Freedom Ride GB and I ran into him on the main street and he just glared at us again and kept going......must have been over from the QC side.
More than likely he didn't feel worthy of parking next to you. So you went to New Liskard? You still there? Must be nice being retired.
Quote from: CDNRatMan on July 05, 2016, 20:56:28 PM
Sunday was a bad day for Drifter riders.........
Bigras, GreenBarn and I were in New Liskeard for the Biker Reunion, and we were parked in a line on the curb. A Drifter 1500 purple and white went by really slow and sort of glared at us. I pointed to the curb and told him to come over and park with us, he then sort of came around and left ......snubbed us, came by later and went right past us and ignored us, then after the Freedom Ride GB and I ran into him on the main street and he just glared at us again and kept going......must have been over from the QC side.
Very odd. I wonder what his problem was. :o
>:( :o Uncle Ronny if you clear your mind you also like Pilgrim were extended an invitation to attend with GB and his lovely bride and myself. But you also snubbed us. We went up on Sunday morning, and returned Sunday afternoon along the QC side of the border. see the attached map.
I had the futon in the spare room all ready made and some extra beer laid in for GB his lovely bride, Pilgrim and aralph or yourself; but I was also snubbed by the three of you and so GB and his lovely bride and myself went up and had a great time. The last" Biker Reunion" to be held. We were there. From the first OPP bike crossing the line onto Highway 11 south till the last bike was just over 31 mins.
I remember your offer but unfortunately I burned up most of my Holidays last winter, I was in Mexico for a month remember? Some day I will be retired then I will be able to go whenever and wherever the desire takes me without a care in the world. Till then I work for the people of Ontario keeping the lights on for all those retired people who need their coffee makers every morning and their porch lights so they can show up God knows what hour of the night and find their way in.
Oh, by the way I had one day off last weekend and that was Sunday which I used to see my son over in Belleville who is handicapped and yes I needed to work Friday Saturday. 10 hour days six days a week from March till last weekend and again in Sept till the end of the year. Everybody has different circumstances in their lives. Enjoy what you have my friend.
DC was not sure what his issue was but he just plain snubbed us.
Uncle Ronny, you need to retire and just smell the roses. Some of us retired people did our service to the country and wore our uniform for 42 years, so we know what it is about. Some of us do not need coffee machines either. Hydro one is a sweet peach of a deal......
We are ok with your choices everyone has to do what they think is right. You have an open invitation to drop in any time for a visit and a ride if you are in my area.......
I'll not get on about divorce laws here but I am slowly getting back on my feet after mine......enough said.
:o Sorry was nothing personal. You misunderstood.
Quote from: CDNRatMan on July 06, 2016, 12:21:55 PM
The last" Biker Reunion" to be held.
You mean, that's it , no more New Liskeard?
aralph
seems the family that started it 15 years ago has decided to bow out. Now they need someone to step to the plate, it affects, the towns of New Liskeard, Cobalt, North Cobalt and Haileybury. For years the gas stations along 11 from Temagami north have donated 2% of their bike fuel sales or their whole bike sales to the event. The campsites and motels within a 2 hour ride are booked within a few hours of the last event being completed. So a lot of people will feel the affects of the event closing down.
I have not been able to get an accurate count of the attendees this year, but people have been saying it was by far the largest in 15 years. Seeing as Monday was a work day for a lot of people many left Sunday before the Freedom Ride, the Freedom ride was over 30 mins in length of bikes.
Ronny: I can assure you, you can take nothing Ratman says seriously ... ;D 8) He is the supreme chain-yanker, and leg-puller.
DC: It was strange with the other purple Drifter guy-- it was as if Ratman had pissed him off over something -- can't imagine why... :o
Ratman: I hate to see the Biker Reunion die off like that. It seems like it had such great support from the community (I haven't seen anything like it). I'm wagering someone will pick it up - we can hope anyway. Hmmm... You're retired now, and should have plenty of free time... ::)
Just whatever you do, don't make fun of him for drinking tea... :-\ you'll get something HOT in your food... :o
Quote from: RockinRonny on July 08, 2016, 07:28:13 AM
Thanks greenbarn, so now I know. I was wondering why he was so put off about me not making it to the biker Rally. It's not like I said " I heard you have really bad halitosis and you buy cheap beer so I can't make it". I mean how sensitive can you get?
Hate to say it, but since you mentioned it, that is the reason I didn't go... ;D
Quote from: CDNRatMan on July 06, 2016, 19:53:43 PM
DC was not sure what his issue was but he just plain snubbed us.
The wives insist I keep working as long as possible. I rarely get a day off or to myself. Then of course, there's always the argument about which wife gets to go to an event I attend, although not all of them are interested in riding anyway.
Quote from: CDNRatMan on July 06, 2016, 22:30:09 PM
I'll not get on about divorce laws here but I am slowly getting back on my feet after mine......enough said.
That's no longer an option for me. There's no way I could survive seven divorces. I just deal with whatever and do as I'm told. :o
Quote from: greenbarn on July 07, 2016, 22:37:27 PM
DC: It was strange with the other purple Drifter guy-- it was as if Ratman had pissed him off over something -- can't imagine why... :o
Now I wonder how THAT could happen. Maybe if he didn't show "certain" pictures to that guy, he might have reacted differently.
Quote from: CDNRatMan on July 05, 2016, 20:56:28 PM
Sunday was a bad day for Drifter riders.........
Bigras, GreenBarn and I were in New Liskeard for the Biker Reunion, and we were parked in a line on the curb. A Drifter 1500 purple and white went by really slow and sort of glared at us. I pointed to the curb and told him to come over and park with us, he then sort of came around and left ......snubbed us, came by later and went right past us and ignored us, then after the Freedom Ride GB and I ran into him on the main street and he just glared at us again and kept going......must have been over from the QC side.
Maybe he was actually smiling at you... but he has Bell's palsy!!!
:o never thought of that ...oh now I feel bad.......he might have been messed up......
Another Harley Country story: During the Harley 100th I decided to ride into Brew City to see (and listen to ) all of the festivities. It was crazy. I could hear the "thunder" 15 miles from Milwaukee. In the city itself It was deafening. I parked my bike at a friend's bar not far from what is now the Harley Museum. Unfortunately I was not riding a Harley. Instead I was riding my '74 750 Tiger. Anywhere you look bikes were parked handle bar to handle bar. I finally found a spot to park the old girl. I went into the bar for a barley pop, chatted up a bit, then stuck my head out to watch some of the acton. And there it was. Normally Harley riders are appreciative of old Triumphs as most of the old guys remember them as their first bikes. Not this time. My old Trumpet parked in the same spot but even though parking was impossible there were two open spaces on either side of my bike. I saw bikes ride by hungry for a parking spot but pass up the open spots once they saw my bike. That was my first experience in not riding a Harley in Harley Country.
Quote from: jmbo on July 13, 2016, 17:03:37 PM
Another Harley Country story: During the Harley 100th I decided to ride into Brew City to see (and listen to ) all of the festivities. It was crazy. I could hear the "thunder" 15 miles from Milwaukee. In the city itself It was deafening. I parked my bike at a friend's bar not far from what is now the Harley Museum. Unfortunately I was not riding a Harley. Instead I was riding my '74 750 Tiger. Anywhere you look bikes were parked handle bar to handle bar. I finally found a spot to park the old girl. I went into the bar for a barley pop, chatted up a bit, then stuck my head out to watch some of the acton. And there it was. Normally Harley riders are appreciative of old Triumphs as most of the old guys remember them as their first bikes. Not this time. My old Trumpet parked in the same spot but even though parking was impossible there were two open spaces on either side of my bike. I saw bikes ride by hungry for a parking spot but pass up the open spots once they saw my bike. That was my first experience in not riding a Harley in Harley Country.
It usually takes extreme intolerance, inobjectivity and a lofty degree of closed-mindedness to buy and adore Harley's.
Quote from: Zoar on July 19, 2016, 10:09:28 AM
It usually takes extreme intolerance, inobjectivity and a lofty degree of closed-mindedness to buy and adore Harley's.
I do agree...;)
Quote from: mittico68 on July 19, 2016, 12:43:31 PM
I do agree...;)
Well, they are grossly over priced and not really that well designed or made. Yet there are those who adore them. Ergo, arguably they adore over-priced inferior design and inferior quality. What kid of brain does that? (See answer above) :) :) :)
About the time I found the Drifter I was considering buying a new Indian but didn't for the same reason, nice bikes , look great but expensive (more than 3 X what I paid for the Drifter) and not nearly as interesting when people find out it's not an Indian.
Quote from: Zoar on July 19, 2016, 13:04:57 PM
Well, they are grossly over priced and not really that well designed or made. Yet there are those who adore them. Ergo, arguably they adore over-priced inferior design and inferior quality. What kid of brain does that? (See answer above) :) :) :)
The only thing I could say in their favor, it's that Harley's marketing guru's made well their job... but I dunno if that's really something to be proud of...
Quote from: RockinRonny on July 20, 2016, 05:20:24 AM
About the time I found the Drifter I was considering buying a new Indian but didn't for the same reason, nice bikes , look great but expensive (more than 3 X what I paid for the Drifter) and not nearly as interesting when people find out it's not an Indian.
Yeah... and you should also consider this is the case in wich the student has surpassed the master!!
Quote from: mittico68 on July 20, 2016, 08:23:17 AM
The only thing I could say in their favor, it's that Harley's marketing guru's made well their job... but I dunno if that's really something to be proud of...
Exactly. That is like being proud of a snake-oil salesman who uses guile and deception to take money from hard working people's pockets.
Oh well, when it happens to see a man ridin' his $30and+K Harley, I just keep on thinkin' he asked for it!
Kawasaki was ahead of the curve in making the Drifters liquid cooled. So far, Indian only makes one model liquid cooled.
You know what?
If only I could, I'd go with an early Indian or even more, with a Kiwi Indian: IMHO those bikes are worth each and every cent!
This sums it all up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2ERfv15EsI
Heh, heh, heh! ;D
Quote from: RockinRonny on July 20, 2016, 10:18:01 AM
This sums it all up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2ERfv15EsI
Heh, heh, heh! ;D
Absolutely hilarious
Quote from: RockinRonny on July 20, 2016, 10:18:01 AM
This sums it all up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2ERfv15EsI
Heh, heh, heh! ;D
LMAO
Quote from: RockinRonny on July 20, 2016, 10:18:01 AM
This sums it all up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2ERfv15EsI
Heh, heh, heh! ;D
Sad but true in many cases...too funny. 8)
They nailed it to a T. Hilarious!!!!! ;D
Now THAT was funny. However, the friend/coworker who gave me the nudge to get back in the saddle is a Harley rider. But he's not hung up on Harley's like some people are, so he's not holding my purchase of a drifter against me - he was actually admiring my bike.
Quote from: Indian_fan on July 23, 2016, 23:12:03 PM
the friend/coworker who gave me the nudge to get back in the saddle is a Harley rider. But he's not hung up on Harley's like some people are, so he's not holding my purchase of a drifter against me - he was actually admiring my bike.
That's what I assume to be regarding harley's bikes: I don't think I'll ever buy one, since they're not worth all the money of their costs; but I admire those Harley wich are customized enough to meet my taste...
I agree. That was funny. All BS aside though, the reason Indians & Harley-Davidsons lasted with John Q public for the first 70+ years was simplicity. Anyone who had the skills to work on a Chevy could work on every part of these bikes. Including the engine an tranny. Also, just about every part that could need replacing could also be found on most farms or local parts stores. It is the modern corporate confluctuation ( my word ) that has been the tragedy of both brands. Albeit the Indian suffered earlier due to poor decisions made during the WW wars.
Another thing. The 80 ci Evo engine is absolutely the most reliable engine HD ever produced. They sold so few parts and repairs were so rarely needed, HD regretted making them. So the solution was build the 88 Twin Cam that is not extremely reliable. And the fuel pump in the gas tank is one of the most consumer unfriendly advances ever made. And it has long been proven, the fuel pump does not have to be in the tank for FI to work.
However, i too think they have almost priced themselves out of existence. Every company that does; doesn't figure it out until it is too late. That is why "they" are no longer in existence. If they had of saw the writing on the wall, they would have adjusted their policies to prevent that outcome.
Okay. I'm done! Rant over.
Quote from: Ironworking on July 24, 2016, 01:30:10 AM
I agree. That was funny. All BS aside though, the reason Indians & Harley-Davidsons lasted with John Q public for the first 70+ years was simplicity. Anyone who had the skills to work on a Chevy could work on every part of these bikes. Including the engine an tranny. Also, just about every part that could need replacing could also be found on most farms or local parts stores. It is the modern corporate confluctuation ( my word ) that has been the tragedy of both brands. Albeit the Indian suffered earlier due to poor decisions made during the WW wars.
Another thing. The 80 ci Evo engine is absolutely the most reliable engine HD ever produced. They sold so few parts and repairs were so rarely needed, HD regretted making them. So the solution was build the 88 Twin Cam that is not extremely reliable. And the fuel pump in the gas tank is one of the most consumer unfriendly advances ever made. And it has long been proven, the fuel pump does not have to be in the tank for FI to work.
There are other advantages to HD ownership. For those who finally get over all the "the dealer is the only one who can fix my Hardly" hype and B.S., you find there are tons of shops that work on the bikes. I admit there are some of these shops I wouldn't ask to fix my lawnmower but there are some good shops none the less. There are also tons of parts and accessories from tons of sources. Not something we Drifter folks enjoy. As far as the rest of the "brotherhood" crap. They can have it.
Quote from: Ironworking on July 24, 2016, 01:30:10 AM
I agree. That was funny. All BS aside though, the reason Indians & Harley-Davidsons lasted with John Q public for the first 70+ years was simplicity. Anyone who had the skills to work on a Chevy could work on every part of these bikes. Including the engine an tranny. Also, just about every part that could need replacing could also be found on most farms or local parts stores. It is the modern corporate confluctuation ( my word ) that has been the tragedy of both brands. Albeit the Indian suffered earlier due to poor decisions made during the WW wars.
Another thing. The 80 ci Evo engine is absolutely the most reliable engine HD ever produced. They sold so few parts and repairs were so rarely needed, HD regretted making them. So the solution was build the 88 Twin Cam that is not extremely reliable. And the fuel pump in the gas tank is one of the most consumer unfriendly advances ever made. And it has long been proven, the fuel pump does not have to be in the tank for FI to work.
However, i too think they have almost priced themselves out of existence. Every company that does; doesn't figure it out until it is too late. That is why "they" are no longer in existence. If they had of saw the writing on the wall, they would have adjusted their policies to prevent that outcome.
Okay. I'm done! Rant over.
I know a lot of Harley owners. About 3% of them work on their bikes. So 97% take their bikes in for everything so the simplicity angle argument is not in alignment with what I observe.
What I see is the success of Harley---not unlike NASCAR---is 97% marketing and branding and advertising.
I think Harleys are extremely overpriced and under performing and the primary reason they are in business is successful marketing/branding to a percentage of the population that is receptive to having their values shaped 97% by branding.
You are so right Zoar! However, i am in that 3% and have been my entire life no matter what brand. My uncle told me when i was only ten. If you can not fix it; you should not own it!
BTW. I said the first 70 or so years. That era came to an end in the late 70's.
Yes! Now they are Brand, Glamour & Prestige. We the american people took our first REAL screwing on transportation products when THEY forced us to switch to electronic ignition. Yes, it is great in many ways, no doubt about it. However, when it goes awry; we can not pull over and file the points clean to get back to the house where we have that extra set sitting on the shelf in the garage.
An again. FUEL PUMPS do not belong inside of the gas tank! Up the chimney hole of the Dufus' who thought that was a good idea!!!
I posted Harley vers Metric as a joke. I like Harley motorcycles (and most of their riders). That being said my Boss rides a $47,000.00 Harley (Canadian). Too rich for my blood. But they certainly sound better than metric bikes.
Funny vid! ;D
I understand the stereotype, and the "life style" that HD sells so well.
Some of the HD riders locally are great people who appreciate all bikes, and some are HarDcore who look down on anyone not riding a big twin.
Even the poor Sportster riders are barely tolerated.
They are viewed as biker wannabies.
HD marketing understands how to sell life style and that is what keeps them in business, not quality or performance.
When the bikes are running good they are enjoyable to ride. ;)
And, they sure do hold their value for resale! Go figure ???
Quote from: RockinRonny on July 27, 2016, 08:34:12 AM
I posted Harley vers Metric as a joke. I like Harley motorcycles (and most of their riders). That being said my Boss rides a $47,000.00 Harley (Canadian). Too rich for my blood. But they certainly sound better than metric bikes.
:)
Last night when I drove my Ducati up in front of a local restaurant, the first thing people said was--- "Man, that things sounds beautiful."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_mp76ouFUg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_mp76ouFUg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A3b_MRimbk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A3b_MRimbk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4ZfaDjxDBs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4ZfaDjxDBs)
Just went for a long ride tonight with a couple buddies that own new Harley Ultra Glides. We're sitting at the gas station and this old guy comes out, walks up and says "OMG, I love your Indian". My one friend just shakes his head because he's used to being overlooked as my bike gets all the compliments. Then the guy asks, "These Harley boys let you ride with them?". I simply replied, "Yeah, they enjoy being around a class bike". He just laughed and said "Nice".
I have found that Harleys around me are like Rodney Dangerfield ... they get no respect! :-)
Another true story for ya...
Went riding with a friend Saturday down in the Catskills. He shows up with a beautiful, brand new Harley which cost him 20-some grand. We stop for lunch at a small diner when 2 young teens come up to him and ask "Excuse me sir, is that your Indian motorcycle outside?" He simply said no, it's his. They came up to me and asked "would it be ok if we got pictures of us with your motorcycle?" Of course I said go ahead. I watched them take several pictures at different angles around the bike and crouching to get their faces near the Indian tank emblem while my friend just rolled his eyes periodically.
After lunch, we walked outside and their were 2 older gentleman standing between our bikes and we heard one say "Wow, that's alot of money wrapped in that beautiful old bike" and, as I got close, followed up with "We were just admiring your Indian. Man, that's alot of bike you have there." After I thanked them and they walked away, my friend said "does anyone want to look at my brand new Harley that I spent a fortune on? NAH" I laughed out loud especially considering her spent 6-7X as much money on his biek as compared to mine.
On the way back, we stopped at a McDonalds in Richfield Springs. The parking lot was maybe half full but he proceeded to go all the way in the back to park. When I asked him why, he simply said "I think you've had enough attention today" LOL!
True story. This sort of thing happens all the time and of course, I really enjoy it.
Beautiful day saturday. We put on 450 miles and then I put on another 350 Sunday. The bike runs like a top. These bikes are truly the best looking ever made and great riding. They are a whole'lot of bike for not nearly the amount of money as others spend :-)
I used to have that happen all the time. My best friend bought a brand new HD Superglide Custom a couple of years ago, and nobody saw it when we'd ride. I felt bad that my Nadine got all of the attention when my friend had 4x the dollars invested in his ride.
Quote from: bambam0099 on September 27, 2016, 05:42:56 AM
Another true story for ya...
Went riding with a friend Saturday down in the Catskills. He shows up with a beautiful, brand new Harley which cost him 20-some grand. We stop for lunch at a small diner when 2 young teens come up to him and ask "Excuse me sir, is that your Indian motorcycle outside?" He simply said no, it's his. They came up to me and asked "would it be ok if we got pictures of us with your motorcycle?" Of course I said go ahead. I watched them take several pictures at different angles around the bike and crouching to get their faces near the Indian tank emblem while my friend just rolled his eyes periodically.
After lunch, we walked outside and their were 2 older gentleman standing between our bikes and we heard one say "Wow, that's alot of money wrapped in that beautiful old bike" and, as I got close, followed up with "We were just admiring your Indian. Man, that's alot of bike you have there." After I thanked them and they walked away, my friend said "does anyone want to look at my brand new Harley that I spent a fortune on? NAH" I laughed out loud especially considering her spent 6-7X as much money on his biek as compared to mine.
On the way back, we stopped at a McDonalds in Richfield Springs. The parking lot was maybe half full but he proceeded to go all the way in the back to park. When I asked him why, he simply said "I think you've had enough attention today" LOL!
True story. This sort of thing happens all the time and of course, I really enjoy it.
Beautiful day saturday. We put on 450 miles and then I put on another 350 Sunday. The bike runs like a top. These bikes are truly the best looking ever made and great riding. They are a whole'lot of bike for not nearly the amount of money as others spend :-)
HA! So true!! and yes your bike does look so much better than his bike.
(BTW--I live on a hill overlooking Seneca Lake so we are close! I just realized that!)
It's all par for the course when you ride a decked out Drifter. Don't want attention? Don't get a Drifter. ;)
Posted this in another thread...
Went for a nice, 350 mile, last ride of the season Saturday (good timing, we got 8" snow Sunday!).
Stopped for a quick bite to eat and, as with every stop I make, caught a couple admirers checking out the bike (Note: notice the Harley in the background that no one even notices? LOL!)