Cool! Taking a riding course was the best thing I've ever done for my riding safety, other than getting a quality full face helmet.
Quote from: Ironraven on April 17, 2012, 19:31:04 PM
... other than getting a quality full face helmet.
Amen!
"It's too hot." (No it's not. I live in South Texas, end of discussion.)
"It impairs my field of vision." (No it doesn't. Less than the side posts in your car.)
"It's too heavy." (If your neck can't support an extra pound of weight over a half shell then you probably shouldn't be riding a motorcycle.)
"It looks cool." (Well, there we have it. At least you're honest.)
The eye port on a modern full face helmet is at least 270 degrees, your own peripheral vision is like 235....I have one helmet for the drifter, an HJC Symax II, which I like, and one for the W-650, which is an HJC Symax 1. The vents work very well on both, but the SII pushes back at the chin bar at higher speeds if I'm on the W, whereas the S1 doesn't. The SII has a built in sun shade, so no need to carry sun glasses of a tinted shield...Neither helmet is perfect, by a long shot, and the next time (probably next season) I replace them I'm going to look for something a little different. I use an open face (3/4) helmet when I'm teaching, so I can actually have the students hear what I'm saying.
We REALLY don't want to start a helmet discussion - but I guess we have. You do what you feel is appropriate for you. There are no WRONG answers to this question. Your opinion is as valid and anyone else's.
I'm a certified safety professional and have done a lot of work in this area. Its all guess work at this point. I wish we had some good studies to rely upon. But that's another story.
For me, safety is an issue, but not the over-riding issue... if it were I'd not be riding. For me riding involves ALL of my senses. I enjoy the sights, smells, sounds and noises , not to mention wind in my face. Locking all of these senses inside a box removes or limits many of the reasons I enjoy riding. So for me, the only reasonable compromise between and unknown margin of safety and the well-known freedom of the senses I enjoy is a half-lid.
My wife tried full face lids, hated them - and we tried many. She enjoys her shielded 3/4 lid - she's not much for wind in the face.
Which brings us back to the beginning... You do what you feel is appropriate for you.
I used to have a kit that tested peripheral vision, response times etc. Every individual is different in this regard. These are relatively easy tests to conduct, even without professional equipment. Anyone can do it themselves with a helper, to get a rough idea. Remember, the key here is to NOT move your head or your eyes... moving your eyes tests the "FIELD" of vision, not peripheral.
While the full face lids usually have shields with wide peripheral vision potential, because of how helmets fit to your head, your eyes cannot always take advantage of this width. The padding inside the lid and/or the lid shell may restrict that range of vision.
Extra Weight... don't confuse the static weight of the lid with the ultimate felt weight at the time of impact... they are VERY different. There is some evidence the increased weight of full face helmets increase the potential for serious neck injury. But, again, there are NO good studies on the issue for motorcycles... HOWEVER, NASCAR requires neck protection for this very reason. The dynamic forces involved are NOT so very different.
For me it comes down to survivability. I love to ride open face or no helmet, but there are too many birds (I took a sparrow to the side of the heat last year and it probably would have killed me without my full face helmet) logging trucks flinging rocks and dropping sticks, etc etc for me to risk it. I've broken 4 face shields with road debris over my years of riding and feel pretty certain any one of those could have knocked me out or caused me some serious damage.
I'm also NOT a 'fair weather only' rider. Hell I rode to work today when it was 40 degrees and raining. Without a full helmet there's just no way I could do it, I'd freeze my inner ear again (yeah, that sucks seriously hardcore, not recommended). I do know some extremely hardcore old bikers who throw on a beanie and hit the road in rain storms... but I'm not quite that hardcore. My commute is 40 minutes and I'd freeze to death.
Finally... I know a dude who was riding down an alley trying to tune his old Shovel... there was a piece of angle sticking out from someone's garage that used to have a handyman sign on it at some point and since he wasn't paying attention it literally cut the top of his head off. If he'd taken the 20 seconds to put some sort of head protector on he'd be alive. For me it's just not worth the risk.
That said, I have zero problems with other people not wanting to wear a brain bucket. I totally understand the appeal and do agree it's a much bigger strain on your neck when you're cruising, especially at freeway speeds or when it's windy out. If there was a way to ride without a helmet and not drastically increase my risk of injury or death I would do it in a heartbeat.
Ride safe out there guys, keep an eye out for soccer mommies in mini vans and douchebags talking on cellphones in SUV's.
-Iron
It's all about freedom of choice. A.B.A.T.E. of WI worked literally for years, almost decades, to get the freedom of choice for licensed adult riders passed. We did it in 1977, and the wave of fatalities the do-gooder guvmint types predicted NEVER came to pass. M.S.F. won't let us wear a half shell on the range for demos, and the WMSP wants us to adopt the ATTGAT philosophy and actually live it, not just preach it.
What Troll said.
I am a fanatic about tires. I likely change them far too often. But it gives me peace of mind when I ride, so I do it anyway. I prefer to wear a lid when I ride... have to wear something and I have my own anecdotes about rocks, birds, bugs, and UFO's that support my decision, at least in my own mind. I've worn one for so long I feel naked without it. How much it will help in a crash... is anybody's guess.
Hey I have a modular full face my wife wore once if anyone is interested. She wears a 3/4 with full face shield.
http://www.autoandmotorcycle.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=1607&lastcatid=54&step=4 (http://www.autoandmotorcycle.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=1607&lastcatid=54&step=4)
In any event, it should always be YOUR choice. And, I am unanimous on that... ;)
Amen brothas! Do what makes you feel safe out there... experience is what makes me do what I do and I'm sure you are all the same. I ain't preaching a damn thing, it's YOUR head and YOUR responsibility. Shit, I wear a jacket with level 3 armor too... But I know guys who don't even wear boots!
Both my jackets have CE spec armor...gel inserted kevlar gloves, 18" pole climbers....and then there are the guys with no shirt, torn jeans and sneakers....What worries me more is the level of alcohol involvement. Since you live next door, you already know that Wisconsin is the drunkest state in the nation....We preach, we attempt to lead by example, but in the end, it all comes down to personal decisions, often influenced by peer pressure. The A.R.C. is the first class that actually attempts to assess these risk taking behaviors and change them..The ARC is the civilian version of the Military Sport Bike Course...
You know there are lots of reasons other than crash protection to wear protective gear... I wear an armored mesh jacket - it keeps me cooler in the heat, and since I started I've had no wasps fly into my shirt, or sunburned arms... I wear footgear that helps support my ankles... which helps keep me upright. I wear gloves that keep my hands comfortable, are good for swatting bugs or clearing rain from my glasses/goggles while riding and might help if I fall over in a parking lot. My glasses help me see and keeps crap out of my eyes, and my lid keeps my bald head from burning, repels june bugs and sparrows, and gives me a place for stickers. My pants keep all sorts of creatures from having ready access to tender portions of my body and keeps me from getting blistered or burned on a pipe.
Sleeveless shirts, shorts and flip-flops tells me more about a person's IQ than most anything else I can think of at the moment. Personally, I'd be stung, blistered, popped, and burned before I got a mile down the road. Nevermind what would happen in a crash.
I've been riding more years than I care to count; (as, I expect have many people on this sight) and have been in one accident: rolling the last few feet to a stop sign, a mini-van cuts out of a parking lot on my right, my wife screams "Look-out!!!" I leaned so far left trying to avoid the idiot (no speed to use to pull away) we were in danger of falling over; moron-man in the mini-van hit us on the right side hard enough to lift the bike up and knock it out from under us, it landed on its right side. My wife, wearing the same half-helmet with lower leather curtain as I wear (personal choice for both of us) landed on the BACK of her head; I could hear that as I was coming in for a one point landing flat on my back. Half helmet or full face, choice is yours, it without a doubt saved her life; she had a serious concussion, with brain swelling, but aside from feeling like she had been blind-sided by a mini-van was ok. Saying if someone can't wear a full-face because of the extra weight is like saying if you don't like the price of gas you should walk everywhere. Some people (myself included) due to various reasons beyond our control, can't wear a full-face; I have a 3/4 with flip-up face-shield I used to pack for wet conditions; can't wear it any more except on rare occasions. Suggesting people shouldn't ride if they can't wear a full-face rates right up there with bureaucrats telling us we shouldn't ride motorcycles "because they are dangerous". Many groups and individuals (see Trolls comments) have fought for years to regain the rights of people to wear whatever kind of helmet works FOR THEM AS AN INDIVIDUAL.
My "opinion"
Regards and such,
49Reo
P.S. Cussing and swearing doesn't help get your point across; clear and concise English does. My opinion.
Cheers g :'(uys... Just stay safe.... And don't wear flip-flops... They make you look silly. :P
Quote from: 49Reo on April 18, 2012, 21:56:54 PM
Suggesting people shouldn't ride if they can't wear a full-face rates right up there with bureaucrats telling us we shouldn't ride motorcycles "because they are dangerous". Many groups and individuals (see Trolls comments) have fought for years to regain the rights of people to wear whatever kind of helmet works FOR THEM AS AN INDIVIDUAL.
I didn't say that people shouldn't ride if they CAN'T wear a full-face. I said that they shouldn't ride if they can't support the extra 1-2 pounds of weight that a full face adds over a half shell (based on an unscientific quick glance at helmet weights). If you can't wear it because you have a big nose, big ears, special devices, deformity, etc, that's one thing, but if your neck is too weak to support that minimal weight then it tells me that you will have an issue keeping your head upright causing your bike and sliding body to be a danger to other drivers around you.
My previous comment should not be construed as "People shouldn't wear half shells." It means that half shells do not provide the protection that a full face does and that the only valid reason not to wear one is personal style preferences or, as I added above, special fit requirements. The other three reasons are the ones that I hear most often and they are ridiculous. If you want to wear a half to look good or smell butterflies and you feel safe enough, more power to you. Those are valid, though superficial, reasons and it will never be as safe as a full face but at least we're being honest and weighing the risk and making a decision.
The ones that I will say probably don't have much to protect anyway are those who wear no protection at all. A low speed crash kills quite often, as a man near my house found out recently. You can't legislate common sense but you can save some lives.
This is from my state of Texas:
http://journals.lww.com/smajournalonline/Fulltext/2010/01000/The_Effect_of_the_1997_Texas_Motorcycle_Helmet_Law.6.aspx (http://journals.lww.com/smajournalonline/Fulltext/2010/01000/The_Effect_of_the_1997_Texas_Motorcycle_Helmet_Law.6.aspx)
"Results: A sharp increase in fatality rates occurred immediately following the implementation of the law in September 1997. Deaths increased by 30%, fatality rates per motorcycle registrations increased by 15.2%, and fatality rates per vehicle miles traveled increased by 25% after repeal. Helmet use decreased from 77% in 1996 to 63% in 1997 and 36% in 1998 and thereafter. The parameter estimates of the ARIMA model (0,0,0) (0,1,1) show that the change in the law led to statistically significant increases of 2.3 fatalities and 1.18 fatality rate per 100 billion vehicle miles traveled.
Conclusions: The repeal of the universal helmet law in Texas in 1997 has had a significant adverse effect on motorcyclist fatalities in Texas."
The thing that I find amazing was that helmet use was only 77% while the law was in effect. Of course, that's much better than the 36% now. Helmet laws don't suck but it is sad that we would even have to consider having them. It seems like you would want to live.
Fatalities aren't free to the state either. It ties up resources for hours and costs billions of dollars as reported in the journal. If you want to be free to ride naked, we shouldn't have to pay the cost for it.
On another note, a $600 helmet and kevlar jacket aren't a license to be reckless either, as a friend of mine found out two months ago. Motorcycle riding is dangerous but we don't have to compound that fact just to have a good time.
This is the problem I was trying to avoid. It started as a comment about preferring full face lids. I knew at some point someone would start citing stats and head down the helmet law, cost to society dead end. And, then there is the inevitable "superficial" and "ridiculous" characterizations of opinions which are aimed at no one but end up being adopted by someone. Dueling should be reinstated... civility would soon follow!! ;)
In Texas, pre-1977- 77% of the people who died WERE wearing helmets . Sounds like wearing a helmet was really dangerous, doesn't it?... but that stat is taken out of context and can be easily abused. After the repeal there were an additional 35 deaths in the time period studied and only 25% or so of the folks were wearing lids. Well the first stat didn't tell the whole truth and neither does the second. The fact is, accident reports don't provide the detail needed to know what is REALLY happening. Swallow the stats or not...you decide how much uncertainty you can accept.
There is no possible way of determining if a full face is better or worse than any other lid. Its all a simple matter of opinion. Obviously, it will protect your face, but does it offer any additional protection from serious head trauma over other styles? Does it increase the potential for neck and spine injuries? Are they more or less dangerous due to the isolation of the various senses? I don't know, and neither do you. Nobody knows for sure. We simply don't have the facts, but we all have opinions.
Everything has a "cost to society". We chose to bear those costs in exchange for our individual freedoms. Its a dangerous road to take as it can very easily be used to remove our freedom of choice in any area at any time. I will gladly pay my share of those costs if it means maintaining your freedom to make your own choices. BTW, Bikers have better insurance than automobile owners according to the Insurance Institute.
I'm going to lock this topic primarily to protect myself from my compulsive need to respond to every freakin post!!! ... :-X
Oh,... one final word... FULL FACE LIDS SUCK!!! and you are stupid if you think otherwise.
Just kidding...!!! I don't care what or if you wear a lid. Just be safe and have fun... and don't wear shorts and flip-flops... 8)
Now back to mods, tires and long rides down country roads... Cheers.