18/38 conversion- seriously?

[rob f]

Thanks for the heads up on SW. Just thought I would check it out for price.
Will be staying with sprockets.
On that note........... I have just returned from a little putt after changing the front 18t back to the 17t and VERY happy to report that the matching of speeds and rpms are manageable for me and the bike. First gear is a little easier to start off in and the higher gears can pull me out of low speeds alot easier. 5th is now workable to  slow-cruise  down at 90kph vs 110kph with the 18t. The speeds are perfect for my back roads and in town. Haven't had it on any super speedways yet but am guessing that I could hold it at 120-130 with no problem. Hills and wind are another story. This machine is hugely affected ( powerwise) by wind but physically doesn't flinch even in heavy gusts.
R

[CDNRatMan]

rob f; please listen to OR_Seedman. Yes I am a sprocket swap guy but I am not trying to dissuade from going to a belt. But I also ordered and it has been so long now that I for got what it was but Scootworks still owes me $50.00 and I also never got my part..... so I am not a fan of theirs and it has only been 2 years or so........
I also know we have a couple of belt fans here on the site. When I first bought my Drifter I contemplated a belt drive for mine, but the cost back then was closer to $1000.00 vice the cost of 2 sprockets and a chain so that was $350.00 if you bought all top of the line parts. Also back then a lot was written about the front sprocket on a belt drive having uneven wear as the sprocket was not lined up directly to the belt. There was a lot of negativity towards the belts, and so I went chain, but if you can find a good belt then go for it...but be aware of scootworks as you can check out on out in out suppliers and parts area....located here: https://www.vulcandrifterriders.com/forum/index.php?board=25.0

[OR Seedman]

robf...I think that I can speak for most of us here that you need to be really careful when dealing with Scootworks.....they take your money and then take MONTHS to deliver (if they even deliver it to you at all).  You get tons of excuses and lies regarding anything you order (they are at paint, just starting a new run...etc, etc,)  Many here have had to charge back on credit cards   and forget about it if you send them a check.....once in a while they get things done correctly, but you should really check the rip-off reports online before you purchase anything from them....MHO

OR Seedman

[rob f]

Just checked scootworks out on the belt conv. Looks like about $600 US.
Interesting fact I found was that the belt conv equates to a 18/40 sprocket combo. In theory when I go back to the 17t I should be running the same rpms and speeds as the belt drive.
R

[rob f]

 A belt would sure be a lot cleaner.
Had a heritage softail with a belt and can't say anything bad about it except that I was always worried about little stones getting flipped in whilst on gravel roads. I have about 3 miles of gravel before i hit pavement.
I am going to check into the cost though. Thanks.
Rob

[Zoar]

I have done the 18/38 sprocket swap and just finished my first highway ride. I was not impressed.
Now , I am sure  this comment will get a lot of VDR member's panties in a knot but hear me out.
I needed to change out the sprockets and chain anyway so I will not be asking GB for a refund as Ratman had suggested in an earlier post
Some background info first: I have not ridden this bike with the stock sprockets it came with, as I just bought it Dec2017. The bike is pretty much stock except for a k/n filter, so hp is pretty much factory. Most of my roads are 90kph to 120kph (55mph-75mph). My personal comfort zone is around 105kph (65mph) These are my shifting speeds with the 18/38 conversion......
1-2 @40k/25m
2-3 @ 70k/45m
3-4 @95k/60m
4-5 @110k/68m
Does this shifting range sound right to you other 18/38'rs?

My experience: Took it on a 2hr run on the hyway into a strong crosswind. Could not hold it @ 110k/68m in 5th gear on any kind of hill. Ran it most of the way in 4th @ 105k/65m and on occasion had to dump it into 3rd on a very steep hill. The bike seems to be running fine and has new plugs.  New properly inflated tires and I only weigh 170lbs ,solo, no luggage.

Bottom line:  For my riding conditions the stock 800cc's cannot handle the 18/38 conversion . Also am finding that I am feathering the clutch too much at start up and also braking too much coming into intersections. 1st is way to tall for my liking.
I will try the cheap route first and change the front back to 17t. May be just enough. If not, I will have a pair of slightly used 18/38 sprockets for sale.
R

I guess I'll chime in because when I bought my bike it had the BELT conversion in it. I have not had any of the issues of low power as you describe. I also did not and do not have the stock exhaust. I can say that the recent custom exhaust I had put on my bike did improve even more the power, slightly but I did notice an enhancement.

I like the belt. It may be your answer, too.

[roger hendrickson]

No judgements here, fellas, just the facts.....per our local Kawi dealer:  "We have changed several  800 Classics to a 38T rear, but they started with a 42T rear. Customers all love it!"   (That computes to a 10.5% change from stock.)  He then told me that one tooth (17 up to 18) on the front would yield 6% RPM drop, about 250 RPM through the whole range. Two teeth on the rear (42 down to 38) is another 5% change from stock. As it turns out, I have to consider my surroundings before I go 18/38, like elevation (about 1560 feet @ local airport), flat terrain (if I get up on an 8' stepladder, I can see Saskatchewan), and the elements (30 MPH is just a nice breeze). Decisions, decisions!

[rob f]

I did see the baffelectomy posting a while back and when I had my pipe off this winter,I had a look.
Because it was an irreversible procedure I decided to not do it until I rode it for a bit.
May have to revisit that post.
R

[mittico68]

Thanks for the info Tom. I hate to get rid of the OEM exhaust as that big fishtail is what always catches my eye first. For now, the bike is for looks and not hyway power. I am sure that most of my loss is that pipe. And ofcourse if I change it then it's off to jet the carb. Maybe a project for next winter.
I've been tinkering on it for 4 months and now it's time for cruisin'
R

If I can chime in, I just wanna say that I got rid of the OEM exhaust by changing it with a homemade one.
That said, the first thing I felt when I rode her after the mod was a huge improving of performance: I didn't have any eletctronic instruments, that was just my own feeling. But believe me: it made me ride with a big, enormous smile upon my face!
BTW: I've been riding with the 2up configuration, too and I've never felt any lack of power with the 5th gear on. I guess it all dipends on the rpm's your running...
Just my 2 cents.

[Tfrank59]

 I must admit it's an attractive looking stock exhaust, in fact I remember when I first got my bike lamenting that the previous owner got rid of it. Of course my mod was to put fish tails back on there two of them. Anyway concerning yours you could consider de-baffling it, I think there's some posts about it on this forum and that might loosen her up a little and give you more power. Of course I totally hear you about just wanting to ride cuz that's about all I wanna do now that our weather here is really improving.

[rob f]

Thanks for the info Tom. I hate to get rid of the OEM exhaust as that big fishtail is what always catches my eye first. For now, the bike is for looks and not hyway power. I am sure that most of my loss is that pipe. And ofcourse if I change it then it's off to jet the carb. Maybe a project for next winter.
I've been tinkering on it for 4 months and now it's time for cruisin'
R

[Tfrank59]

 Based on your description and the contrast between your bike's performance and, well, everybody else's, I think you may have a problem with low power. You're running stock exhaust, correct?  I've never had the stock exhaust on my Drifter but I know which exhaust a bike has has a huge impact on horsepower and I also know that the emissions laws require that basically all stock exhausts be fairly constipated in terms of noise and back pressure.  And then there's the carb jetting, which I think you said in another post you were thinking about doing – I know for my bike that made all the difference, because with the stock settings my bike ran so lean it was basically anemic, and once I did the Dynojet kit she's run like a scalded dog.  So for me it was a combination of getting the exhaust right, then getting the carb tuned correctly and finally adding the K&N filter, and now she's running at full power.

Just a note about your gearing, since you indicated you will go back to the 17 tooth countershaft sprocket, I think that's a good plan. You can always switch back to the 18 if you want, but seems like if you find it's too tall with the 18 tooth then just go back to stock.

Lastly, the other thing that's made a big difference in my riding (specifically how much I'm revving the engine) is having an electronic tach.  They are quite inexpensive and easy to install -- search the posts.  once I realized I was shifting at 3000-3500 RPMs (which is where one might upshift a bigger bike, like a 1500cc) and that I could easily take it to 4000-4500, I've been getting peak performance out of her especially on hills, and not even getting close to redline which is more like 6500 RPMs.

[rob f]

Shouldn't be any variation in bikes from the production line. It's when the owners create variations.
Mine, from what I can tell only had a K&N filter installed so should be close to stock.
After reading all the comments here I am starting to think that I  may have a power issue with the bike. There is no way in hell that I could do 2 up in 5th. Maybe I am running 5th too low in its new range? I shift in at 110k/68mph? is this too low? should I be running it at 120-130 to get in the power band?
I couldn't get a compression reading as the spark plugs threads are smaller than my gauge fittings.Didn't check the valves either and don't know what main jet is in the carb.
With only 25,000kms on the bike and my gut feeling on how it runs, I mentally eliminated a power issue. Still, I am installing a new 17t and see how it acts.
Guys,thanks for all the input ( both ways).
R

[greenbarn]

I rode my 800 for about a year or so when I got it, with the stock setup.  Like some others, I was constantly looking for an extra gear, and real uncomfortable going 70 MPH, feeling like the bike is buzzing and screaming.  After switching, I have had no issues with the gearing being too high- no problems I can think of in hills, lack of power or what not.  I even rode it 2-up for quite a while before I got the 1500, and 1st still seemed plenty low for me, with a passenger.  So , I guess it's been said, to each their own.  I suppose there might be that much variation between bikes, too.

[rob f]

Ratman......recycling the cycle.
I like it!

[OR Seedman]

As someone who has ridden with both setups on my 800, I prefer the 18/38 setup...my reasons being that I mostly rode the bike on country roads and the highway...usually at 55-70mph.  With the oem sprocket setup I was constantly hunting for a 6th gear and the buzzing rpm vibration at anything over 60 mph was kind of annoying (but to be honest, my previous bikes were touring models and the 800 was my first V-twin).  With the 18/38 set up, I was more comfortable at higher speeds, was not hunting for another gear and did not really notice any loss of torque at lower speeds.   That being said, I have sold my 800 and am now riding the 1500 model.  With the larger engine and shaft drive, it has a wider gearing setup and cruises comfortably at 70-75 on the highway, with loads of torque....

So...to each his own. But, unless you have ridden the same bike under both setups, it is presumptuous to dictate to others which is better, especially based upon your particular style of riding.  You may find the oem setup more to your liking than Ratman and  I did....if so, then that's the setup you should use....

[CDNRatMan]

Forgot to add this little tidbit the picture below if you notice is the seat frame for Raven, it is a seat frame from a 2 up seat that I bought off ebay that someone else had tried to modify and gave up on. So I had it modified.....ok and why here in a discussion of sprockets.....look close and you can see I put my 17 T sprocket to good use and that is also the original sprocket of the machine.....lol....

[CDNRatMan]

    Ok not going to get into a pissing contest here and I for one am not going to want to have anyone upset with me over this issue. So I will just say the following, I do know of a couple about 4 hours north east of me that have 2 800 Drifters and one has the sprocket swap and one without. So I am going to ask him his opinion. Now I also have a digital tach on my bike as Marc knows, cannot remember if he has one also. But I will take the time to get the figures in different gears and post them up here.
I do know that I rode my bike to Kingston ON along highway 41 from North Bay, a few really good twisties and some ugly steep hills (not mountains....) Now when I rode it with stock gearing I was looking for a sixth gear.
I took it in for servicing on my return, and the mechanic is someone I trust with your life. Now he is a personal friend of mine also. He jumped my shit because the idle was below 1000 rpm which is where the 800 is supposed to be when warm. So he set it to his liking, He also gave me the practical reasons why this machine has to run at higher RPMs than other bikes. So I understand about that and this summer while riding the Cabot trail yes I was shifting up and down, but I was keeping the rpm's up high and that little 800 responded like a champ, I had no issues keeping up with the "big boys".
So in closing, I will ride my way and to my liking and enjoy it. If it is not the same as you, so be it ....now imagine how boring it would be if we all did everything the same..........now just wait till you see Raven when she comes out to play.....

[rob f]

Neither here nor there : some tidbits I found while looking at sprocket info
"For every 1 tooth you change on the front, it is the equivalent to changing 3-4 teeth on the rear."
"A sprocket with an odd number of teeth will offer at least double the service life of a sprocket with even teeth.
In simple terms, if a sprocket has an even number of teeth, the same tooth will be engaged by the same rollers on each rotation. This leads to uneven wear on the chain and sprocket and a shortened service life for both components"

And for some heavy info see this:
http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/154060-excellent-chain-sprocket-information.html

[kw-retrorider]

Rob F: on my second 800 with stock gearing and have never been moved by the discussion of changing sprockets. It does depend on where and how you ride. I am Maryland where it is fairly flat; I ride one up and do not ride highway at 70-75 mph.

That said, I also went to the Drift-In in 2013, some 500 miles each way and had plenty of 65MPH time on the highway with no issues.

To my sprocket changing friends, Mr. Greenbarn and Mr. Ratman.....we have had this discussion before. This is not a Harley; it is a better engineered engine designed to run at higher RPM. Because the swap results have been subjective without quantitative back-up from a tachometer or other info on power to RPM at shift points, most of the discussions have been about sound and feel.

I looked at the recommended shifting range that is published....it is much higher than what you feel when you actually ride....as a matter of fact I tried to ride the bike that way as a test...it was ridiculous how much I was winding out the engine. Talk about feel, that just didn't feel right. After that anecdotal test, wasn't convinced I need to change the sprocket ratio, which would only lug this engine... to what end.... just so it sounds like what some may be used to. As a non-Harley guy...I had no frame of reference for that, so stuck with what they built.

Again, just another view and not condemning others experience or preference. Also, to be fair...I have never ridden one with the swap. That might be the only way I might be swayed.

[rob f]

From the sounds of it I may have a power issue with my bike.  But from my years of running equipment I am confident that this bike is running as well as it should through all gears ( except 5th) with exceptional low end torque. Maybe I should take the tranny apart ,remove  the 5th driven gear and chuck it in the trees. I"ll never use it at this rate.
What I mean by 1st being too tall ..its a dirt biker term for a first gear that gives too much ground speed for the rpm. The Buell that i owned had a very fast first gear and I dropped it many times turning around because it liked to stall out because of this. I fixed it by installing a smaller drive gear in the tranny. I suppose this turned me off to speedy first gears.
Gonna order a 17T today and will let you know what I think in a week or so.
R

[CDNRatMan]

  rob not sure what you mean that 1st is too tall. I had switched my sprockets. Bike is completely stock other than a Roadhouse exhaust and K&N air filter. Now to get it out I am 5'11" and about 250 lbs. First picture is of my bike prior to going to the East Coast and riding the Cabot Trail. For shits and giggles I weighed my gear prior to leaving and that included 3 gals of gas in case. That put the weight of the bike at 325 lbs.
I have never had to feather the clutch to take off. I cruised out to Montreal along the TC and maintained 120 to 130 kms all the way, from Montreal to Sackville I was again along the TC and was cruising along at 120 to 140 km. I think I might have had to gear down for one long hill but do not recall having to downshift often if at all.
Now Rob I am not going to get my panties in a knot because you disagree with me, I will say each to their own and I stand by my liking the gearing I have set up for my riding style and my riding speed. I have ridden from North Bay to Billings MT, and back via the TC in Canada with this set up and it has proven itself to me.
I would like to find a stock set up and ride along with them and see when and how often the shifting is done......Soon as I can get out I will try and make a record of my shifting at what speeds and what the tach is showing.......

[greenbarn]

Wow, I'm really surprised- first time I've ever heard of anyone thinking the 18/38 was too high.   I have never mapped my shift points, but I know before the swap, with stock gearing, at 70 MPH it would seem to be revving so high on the highway it would seem like it was coming apart.

Also, I know the 18/38 gearing is nearly identical to the gear ratio of the belt conversion kit. 

[Tfrank59]

Well I've been running the stock gearing on my Drifter and I think like you I found it a little tall to begin with. I have no intentions of gearing up, but that's because I do very little riding at higher speeds. Mostly I ride between about 35 and 55 miles per hour and occasionally for an exit or two I'll get on the freeway (as a point of reference the stock gearing on my 800 is roughly the same as the gearing on my 1500 Valkyrie).  I've made friends with the stock gearing on my 800, so I'm good with it just the way it is. I know some of our friends on this forum will chime in and say they like what they did gearing up but perhaps that's because a lot of them go on long trips (some of them even riding 2 up and they still find sufficient power to climb hills). To each his own.

[rob f]

 I have done the 18/38 sprocket swap and just finished my first highway ride. I was not impressed.
Now , I am sure  this comment will get a lot of VDR member's panties in a knot but hear me out.
I needed to change out the sprockets and chain anyway so I will not be asking GB for a refund as Ratman had suggested in an earlier post
Some background info first: I have not ridden this bike with the stock sprockets it came with, as I just bought it Dec2017. The bike is pretty much stock except for a k/n filter, so hp is pretty much factory. Most of my roads are 90kph to 120kph (55mph-75mph). My personal comfort zone is around 105kph (65mph) These are my shifting speeds with the 18/38 conversion......
1-2 @40k/25m
2-3 @ 70k/45m
3-4 @95k/60m
4-5 @110k/68m
Does this shifting range sound right to you other 18/38'rs?

My experience: Took it on a 2hr run on the hyway into a strong crosswind. Could not hold it @ 110k/68m in 5th gear on any kind of hill. Ran it most of the way in 4th @ 105k/65m and on occasion had to dump it into 3rd on a very steep hill. The bike seems to be running fine and has new plugs.  New properly inflated tires and I only weigh 170lbs ,solo, no luggage.

Bottom line:  For my riding conditions the stock 800cc's cannot handle the 18/38 conversion . Also am finding that I am feathering the clutch too much at start up and also braking too much coming into intersections. 1st is way to tall for my liking.
I will try the cheap route first and change the front back to 17t. May be just enough. If not, I will have a pair of slightly used 18/38 sprockets for sale.
R