Bike wont start, help ?

[SpookWarrior]

I just want to say... should have come here first.  I just reconnected my clutch sensor connector on the handlebar... and it fires right up.  Now I am going to put my bike back together.

You guys are awesome. 

[badboy194]

That is what makes this site so fun, everyone that pitches in is happy to do it.

[chief]

I think VN1500 had it pegged way back at the start... and Troll is always good for a thorough analysis! 

[badboy194]

Congrats lump.  The Dynamic Drifter Duo (Chief and Troll) avert crisis again.  Another Drifter is saved from the clutches of the Dreaded Dealer.   All is well in Drifter City.

[lumper]

Thanks again everyone.
Lump

[VN1500]

Yippee!...Glad to hear Lump!

Ride safe & enjoy!

Ron

[chief]

Yep and you always need to start with the easy stuff first... that clutch switch connector has been the cause of more than one -non-start situation .

Really glad that was the problem.

[Troll]

The best fixes are the ones that help you learn without costing too much

[lumper]

Thank you guys so much for all the tips and help.
I got it running!!
I cant stop smiling either.
You guys, even on mothers day were there for me and spent a lot of time pondering my problem, I cant tell you enough how much that means to me and how thankful I am you are all here.

So I walked back through all the steps that led to the bike not starting.
In my excitement I realized I forgot what started all this.
I installed an under the bar mirror that clamps on the bars.

Well dont you know that the mount is exactly where that plug under the clutch is.
I looked more carefully after removing the mirror and sure enough, I had loosened the plug while installing the mirror and never knew it, or for that matter I never knew the switch was there an that it would contribute to not starting.

I was really freaking out since I couldn't understand how the bike went from fine to nothing.
I knew I must have done something but what?
Anyway after I put the mirror on the other day I thought, now would be a good time to polish the bike before a ride and then I will get some pics with the new mirrors, well when it wouldn't start I never once thought about the mirror until you guys pointed out that I should check that plug carefully.
I learned a lot about diagnostics on this bike, things to look or, where so many things are I never knew existed, etc..
It was a truly winning experience for me.
And the satisfaction that it wasn't a relay, a starter or my battery is even better.
This did prompt me to test my battery though and see it showed less than adequate cca's so I am going to replace it this week anyway for good measure.
I got so inspired I fabricated a couple of brackets  and installed my air horns and  I also cut off some threads I needed to install some female threaded spikes into my stock mirror mounts and painted it all too, so I am now just literally waiting for paint to dry and then I am heading out to take a ride and see how everything feels, sounds, looks and drives.

Thanks again so very much, I am very grateful.

Lump

[Troll]

forgot to attach the schematic...duhhh

[Troll]

As you can see the system does not include any kind of automotive solenoid, or even a starter clutch ("bendix"), as such. The starter is constantly engaged but does not spin until energized. There is a 1 way clutch that disengages after the engine starts.

[lumper]

Ok, cool I am going to check again now.
I got a battery charger this morning but my luck it is old and doesn't work, lol.
I am going to check the switches and see if thats it, if not I am going to buy a replacement battery in a day or two, if thats not it at least I know I have a good properly charged battery to then run the tests concerning the relays and stuff.
Thanks, fingers crosses.
Lump

[chief]

Yes, the battery can have enough juice to handle lighting but not spin the starter... its happened on both my GW and Drifter... same year! Replaced both batteries as a result. One would charge but fail under load. the other would charge but lose the ability to turn the starter after sitting about 10 minutes. Both batteries were 6 years old. Go figure.

Just mess around up there around the clutch lever/switch box. There are connectors there.. I had this happen after doing some work on the bike. If the connector isn't on nice and tight it will prevent the bike from starting. All those things should be checked before replacing anything.

[lumper]

Troll,
Thanks I am going to check it now.
IF you want to send me the schematics, my email is lumper@snet.net

Thanks again.

Lump

[Troll]

The plug is on the underside of the clutch perch, plugging in under the hose.  Be sure it's pushed all the way in. I can email you a schematic of the starter circuit.

[lumper]

is that the plug under he control and lever or you mean the actual contact point for the clutch?

One last question for tonight.
Is it possible that even though the battery has enough cca (123) to run my horns and lights that it just doesn't have enough to engage the cylinoid so it wont even start the starter?
And with that is there still a chance that a new fully charged battery might just fire it up?
Or is that a pipe dream at this point do you think?

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your time and help on this, tomorrow I am going to run through some tests but I feel like without a good battery it might be a waste of time.

I can grab a charger from my mom tomorrow and leave the battery on it and see if it will take a charge or not.
Lump

[Troll]

Check to be sure the plug on the clutch lever is all the way in and tight. all the current for the starter relay has to pass this switch.
When I got mine, the wires were just slightly pulled out and it wouldn't turn  over (crank) even with a fully charged battery. Neutral light was on, side stand up or down, makes no difference, if this bugger isn't making contact.

[lumper]

Sorry Chief we posted at the same time I missed that long diagnostic, thanks  alot.
I will hit it again tomorrow when  have light again.

Also you said, You will need to disconnect and test each switch one by one...
How do I test them ?
locate them and disconnect them and inspect ? what else can I do to test them?

To clarify from before, I said side cover, I meant the right side air cover I guess it is called, the ports that the throttle control are on the top and then in the middle are two cylinders with lines running to them and they are wired with plugs on the bottom, these seem to click when I hit the start button, I can touch them and feel it.

I am going to go through all the tests you gave me though and see whats up, I cant get a new battery until Weds or Thursday so I wont be able to see if that is the problem.
It seems more unlikely that it is a battery now though and more likely a relay or switch or short somewhere possibly I guess.
Lump

[lumper]

Well when I get my ear really close and stretch my ape like arms across the bike to start it the click I hear made me take the right side cover off to look and see what was in there, but it definitely seems up high and center not out front on the bottom,  definitely dont think anything is getting to the starter though.
I brought home a tester from my moms just now but I really have no idea how to use it, it is a multi tester ac/dc/volts and ohms, I thought maybe I could test the cylinoid or starter if I could get to the wires.
I read somewhere online when someone else was having this exact issue they ran a bypass direct from the battery to the starter to make sure it wasnt the starter and I was wondering if I should try bypassing anything like the kickstand sensor or anything.

So the relay is under the right side cover?
I had it off and saw two valve looking things, lol sorry, I assumed they had something to do with the fuel system.
What should I do with the relay to determine if it is the problem?
bypass it, replace it, ?

Thanks again for all your help too, I really appreciate it, I just want to ride.

Lump

[chief]

Well you know the starter motor is in the front of the bike, the starter relay is under the right side covers... either could sound like its coming from under the tank...

[lumper]

ok, here's what I know and I still cant start the bike.

When I press the ignition I can hear a clicking up under the tank.
Its not coming from the starter if the starter is in the front behind the radiator on the bottom.

I dont know if I should take the tank off and look up in there or what is up there, but it sounds like a relay clicking to me.

the battery although it showed 120 cca it has a charge and sparks up good, lol everything comes on an my air horns work so it seems like between the battery and the starter something is wrong or shorted out.

I dont have a manual and I have never had the tank off so I dont know what is up under there or if there is anything I can do in there.

Or maybe it could be a sensor that is interrupting the power, I looked at the bike down sensor in the battery compartment, and I looked for the kickstand sensor and I cant see anything that looks wrong.

Now, I am kind of helpless until I can either get a manual or take it to a shop and have it looked at but I cant afford to do that so it wont be anytime soon, in the meantime I am open to your suggestions and ideas to trouble shoot to see if it is something I can locate and fix.
I am planning on going to Laconia bike week in a month so I have til then to fix it, lol, ugh  ... help

Thanks for all the help already, I really do appreciate it, without you guys I have no contact with anyone that knows anything about motorcycles, my friends that do aren't around here and there the ones I cant get a hold of anyway, there out riding.

Lump

[chief]

You have a tender on that battery? I'd invest in a manual. I use the Clymer's in conjunction with the Kaw manual.

First, since you have removed all the extra stuff on the battery terminals, see if it will take a charge or start using the auto. Make sure the terminals are very clean. If that doesn't work then...

Based upon what you've stated... you get all the power stuff and actually hear the starter relay clicking... that eliminates a lot of wiring, sensor and connector problems. It eliminates the main fuse as the problem as well.

Personally, I'd replace the battery with one recommended for the Drifter. I like to start with a known good fully charged battery.

Then I'd look at the starter and starter relay:

1) Check the starter cable for loose or dirty connectors.
2) Check the starter relay for loose or dirty connectors.
3) Check the starter relay switch:
a) turn on the ignition and hit the start button.
b) if the starter clicks, go to STARTER CLICKS:
c) if starter does NOT click... go to STARTER DOES NOT CLICK

STARTER CLICKS:

1) Remove the starter
2) using a known good, fully charged battery and cables
(ensure you use cables that can handle the load) apply voltage to the starter. It should run.
a) does run: check the starter cables. If they are good, then you will need to check the starter relay.
b) does NOT run: you have a bad starter and it will need to be repaired.

STARTER DOES NOT CLICK:

You will need to disconnect and test each switch one by one...

1) Main switch
2) Start switch
3) Engine stop switch
4) Clutch switch
5) Neutral switch

6) if all above ok.. inspect the starter CIRCUIT relay. this part of the junction box.
a) Remove junction box
b) connect ohmmeter : + to terminal 13; - to terminal 11 = reading should be infinity.
c) connect ohmmeter : + to 12; - to 11 = NOT infinity.
d) if ok Starter Circuit is ok, check starter relay .
e) if readings are off... replace the junction box (you cannot buy a starter circuit relay separately).

STARTER RELAY:

1) Remove the relay
2) Connect known good fully charged 12v batt to the + and - terminals of the relay.
3) Connect an ohmmeter across the starter relay terminals and check for continuity. Should show positive continuity with batt attached. Should show no continuity with the battery is disconnected.
4) If no continuity with battery attached, or if you see continuity with the battery disconnected, you have a bad relay.

[griz01]

You Could test the starter in place, Since you have the battery disconnected already; Disconnect the lead on the starter; hook up the jumper positive lead. Be certain jumper lead touches only the threaded portion of the starter!! Then hook the negative jumper lead to a jumper battery; Hook up the Positive to the jumper battery, and finally touch the negative jumper lead to a ground on the frame. If you are sure the negative cable is good use it. There will be some sparks as you connect keep as far away from the battery as possible . If the starter is good it will crank.

Past this we will need a DVOM, to trouble shoot more.

Just a side note, On my bike when you remove the battery hold down, the tip over switch falls off. Your switch is in place correct? If not there is no chance in will run, don't ask how I found this out

[VN1500]

Lump,

Is there anyway you can get a good battery check done? With a DVOM you should get at least high 12 volt reading,better yet 13+ just across the terminals. A hydrometer check gives more idea of the depth of battery strength.

The more you talk the more it sounds like starter relay. Hard to say for sure, not being hands on!

Ron

[lumper]

ok, well it wont start with a jump from a car or truck that is not running.
The clicking seems like it is coming from under the tank or between the heads, not the starter.
I am getting kinda discouraged here, I guess thats par for the course though so I am trying to think positive.
Without a manual there isnt a lot  can check, I mean I can follow the wiring around and look for breaks, splits, burns, shorts, etc.. but I haven't seen anything like that yet.
I temporarily disconnected the air horn relay switch from the battery and the tender plug so it is just the batter connected to its two main terminals.
What would you recommend I look at or try next?
Lump